Value neutral templates

Ektagliaresia · Post by **Ektagliaresia** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:28 am

Because it was claimed that templates cannot reasonably have a net-zero value, I made this as an attempt to show otherwise.

Undead

*You are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy.

*You do not heal naturally.

*You are immune to poisons and disease. (side note: saline solution could act as a poison to undead).

*You suffer double damage from fire (due to the lack of fluids in your body).

*Your "sleep" is a period of dormancy during which you appear dead. Upon going dormant, you may choose to awake after any combination of a certain amount of time (even years), when disturbed, and when an Alarm you set is activated. While dormant, you do not age.

*You do not need to drink, but do need to eat 1lb of fresh (died no more than an hour ago) flesh per day. This need is suspended if you go dormant for longer than a day.

*You do not need to breathe (you still need to in- and exhale to speak and smell, but no air is processed in your lungs).

*You are [undead], and thus affected by Turning, Rebuking, etc.. This also qualifies you for undead classes.

*You suffer -2 to Handle Animal and Ride checks use with animals, who are unsettled by you.

A vampire simply gains the Undead template, with the proviso of needing blood rather than fresh meat, and can take vampire racial classes. These classes grant the normal vampire powers and weaknesses as you level up.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:09 am

Vampire powers are just spell effects, so I do agree there. A weak vampire is simply a low level vampire-templated normal character with spellcaster levels while all the fancy Dracula shit that comes later is from simply having higher levels, although you might have warrior vampires that grab flight here and there which might require a feat or something later..

You need to define what happens when a generic Undead (and variant such as Vampire too) goes without eating.
Do they fall unconscious/dormant? Do they go berserk and mindless? Do they drop to 0 HP? Do they simply perish?

Ektagliaresia · Post by **Ektagliaresia** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:29 am

The food require is meant as a change to the normal rules for starvation, so nothing special. It might be important for vampires to be able to go for days without blood, though; this could be an ability granted by the class(es).

There could be a single Vampire class, or one for each type (e.g. WoD clans made into classes), so, different vampires might have different weaknesses. Alternatively, the book could present several, but the DM is expected to choose one of them, but not tell which to the players, so that have to figure it out in game.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:52 am

That's fine that they starve and all, but what happens? Does the undead die again?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:59 am

I think a vampire should have more than the default undead traits, and should, sure, be able to take a class to be a better vampire, but if a level 10 Wizard gets captured and turned into a vampire, they should be more than "basic undead" or "trade Wizard levels for Vampire levels."

Instead, they should have some basic Vampire themed powers:

One or more of:
dominate, summon animals, turn into animals, regain strength from drinking blood, gaseous form, lifesense, ect.

And one or more disadvantages of Vampires (both to "keep them even" as a template, and because Vampires should be partially defined by weaknesses).

Sunlight (let's not get into this, don't use it if you don't want it, it's just a common vampire weakness), garlic, wood, people hating them, animals hating them, frenzy/berserk, ect.

As for your template itself, I very seriously doubt that it would be equal, I see two possibilities:

1) You become immune to fire, and therefore it's just a plus, with additional immunities.

2) You don't or can't become immune to fire, and it's actually a net disadvantage just to be able to qualify for undead classes, because double damage from fire is way the fuck huger a weakness than everything else you get.

sigma999 wrote:That's fine that they starve and all, but what happens? Does the undead die again?

They take nonlethal damage, just like humans who don't eat. Read the rules linked in the answer to your question before you ask it again.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:10 am

Kaelik wrote: They take nonlethal damage, just like humans who don't eat. Read the rules linked in the answer to your question before you ask it again.

SRD wrote:Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

I'll ask again.... what happens to starving undead?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:01 am

sigma999 wrote:
Kaelik wrote: They take nonlethal damage, just like humans who don't eat. Read the rules linked in the answer to your question before you ask it again.

SRD wrote:Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
I'll ask again.... what happens to starving undead?

Great, and the immunity that SRD undead have to non lethal damage would totally be relevant IF THESE WERE SRD UNDEAD. THEY ARE NOT.

What you see above is the sum total of undead effects, which means they are not immune to mind affecting/attribute damage/non lethal damage, and they still have a con score.

So fuck you suck a dick learn to read:

WHAT HAPPENS IS THEY TAKE NON LETHAL DAMAGE!!!!!ONE!!!!!111111!!!!ONE!!ELEVEN!!!!!!

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:07 pm

Yeah, there does need to be a disadvantage to the disease/poison immunity, and the lack of need for air, but I don't think double fire damage is the answer. That's a monster weakness, not a PC weakness.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:20 pm

Double fire damage is also not much of a weakness on fire immune creatures.

Ektagliaresia · Post by **Ektagliaresia** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:29 pm

Perhaps if I added: "However, if you have Fire Resistance, you are not treated as resistant or vulnerable to fire, and if you have Fire Immunity, you are treated as instead having Fire Resistance.".

I'm OK with undead fire giants appearing as made of ash, with weak blue flame, that has become someone vulnerable to fire.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:38 pm

Ektagliaresia wrote:Perhaps if I added: "However, if you have Fire Resistance, you are not treated as resistant or vulnerable to fire, and if you have Fire Immunity, you are treated as instead having Fire Resistance.".

I'm OK with undead fire giants appearing as made of ash, with weak blue flame, that has become someone vulnerable to fire.

And that doesn't solve the problem that double damage from fire is way way way the fuck more of a disadvantage than no breathing and disease/poison immunity is an advantage.

Because this doesn't have a system to back it up, it is literally impossible to get damage modifiers right, because things like "double" damage is always too fucking much, and you can't say "+20" because you don't know if +20 is too much or too little.

Undead should have something else as a disadvantage besides taking more damage from a source, or you should make an entire game, and have them get X extra damage, where X is not double, but a constant that you've done the math, and works.

Ektagliaresia · Post by **Ektagliaresia** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:10 am

Kaelik wrote:Because this doesn't have a system to back it up, it is literally impossible to get damage modifiers right, because things like "double" damage is always too fucking much, and you can't say "+20" because you don't know if +20 is too much or too little.

Undead should have something else as a disadvantage besides taking more damage from a source, or you should make an entire game, and have them get X extra damage, where X is not double, but a constant that you've done the math, and works.

Conceded.

Can you think of other possible disadvantages iconic to undead?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:16 am

Ektagliaresia wrote:Conceded.

Can you think of other possible disadvantages iconic to undead?

Well, you could have the disadvantages be not total undead, but undead specific, where the undead template doesn't have any disadvantages on it, but the additions from Vampire/Ghoul/Zombie/ect all have their specific disadvantages.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:15 am

Unfortunately the iconic weaknesses are generally things like "Is batshit insane" or is territory already covered by fey creatures. In fact, vulnerability to cold iron was one of the first things that came to mind, but of course in D&D and most myths that's less of a "weakness" and more of a chink in their otherwise faultless damage reduction. Perhaps undead PCs could be treated as sickened when struck with silver or cold iron weapons unless they have the racial class levels needed to graduate to genuine damage reduction.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:42 am

Ektagliaresia wrote:Can you think of other possible disadvantages iconic to undead?

Penalties to social interactions
Distinctive Odor
Animals go berserk when near you
Some kind of penalty in direct sunlight
Cannot enter holy ground
Vulnerability to silver
Some kind of berserk trigger (Presence of sunlight, smell of blood etc.)
Some kind of overriding task or goal that caused you to return to life

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:41 pm

Whipstitch wrote:Unfortunately the iconic weaknesses are generally things like "Is batshit insane" or is territory already covered by fey creatures..

Here was my extremely short list of vampire weaknesses from earlier in the thread:

Sunlight (let's not get into this, don't use it if you don't want it, it's just a common vampire weakness), garlic, wood, people hating them, animals hating them, frenzy/berserk, ect.

Other types of undead have similar lists. I'm not sure why that would be hard.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:11 pm

It's hard because once you eliminate "mindless" or "malicious/predatory beyond reason" many undead types are left with a rather short list of negatives that can genuinely be called "iconic" or even particularly interesting.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:46 pm

Whipstitch wrote:It's hard because once you eliminate "mindless" or "malicious/predatory beyond reason" many undead types are left with a rather short list of negatives that can genuinely be called "iconic" or even particularly interesting.

Why are you removing mindless? Obviously mindlessness is the disadvantage to being a zombie/skeleton, and that's why PCs are not zombies/skeletons.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:13 am

Well, I think this thread is to make a template for a PC. If the disadvantage is so large that PC's cannot play the class, well then the template is a failure.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:25 am

...You Lost Me wrote:Well, I think this thread is to make a template for a PC. If the disadvantage is so large that PC's cannot play the class, well then the template is a failure.

And I'm saying that obviously you shouldn't make a template for mindless undead for PCs, because they are mindless.

So there should be no problem with all the zombies being mindless, and all the Vampires being week to Sun, and the ghouls being super ugly and hated, and Mummies being slow.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:48 am

Benefit: Immune to poison and disease.

Disadvantage: Situational weakness in certain physical environments, situational weakness in social environments, and lack of mobility.

Two of those are basically not weaknesses, and the other one is barely a weakness. In no way do those weaknesses contribute to a LA +0 template.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:29 am

Two of those are basically not weaknesses, and the other one is barely a weakness. In no way do those weaknesses contribute to a LA +0 template.

The benefit isn't that big either so it looks pretty balanced to me.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:30 am

...You Lost Me wrote:Benefit: Immune to poison and disease.

Disadvantage: Situational weakness in certain physical environments, situational weakness in social environments, and lack of mobility.

Two of those are basically not weaknesses, and the other one is barely a weakness. In no way do those weaknesses contribute to a LA +0 template.

You really are thinking very narrowly.

Here's those weaknesses in a form that makes them effectively unplayably terrible:

1) Ghouls attacked on site by pretty much everyone.

2) Vampires instantly die when hit by sunlight, hey, that includes sunburst/daylight/sunray stuff.

3) Mummies have a move speed of 5ft.

Now, all of those are cripplingly terrible, but theoretically could be scaled back to some point that evens out with their advantages.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:11 am

I have more faith that broad but still situational weaknesses--like being Dazzled by bright light like the Drow, for example--can be made to work as a balancing point than other suggestions I've seen like behavioral compulsions. Such a character fighting at noon is at a clear cut disadvantage and typically doesn't put any real burden on the DM.

Contrast that with an undead knight compelled to continue his quest beyond death. Is that pretty damn cool? Sure, but it's tricky for a DM to handle that as being an actual disadvantage as opposed to being a neat opportunity for DM-Player collaboration on potential plot hooks. Which, again, is way cool, but at that point you're not really talking about something that is short a positive mechanical advantage compared to standard templates.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:37 pm

Give Ghouls a burrow speed. That's fun.